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I don't want to comment on the SPN misogyny wank one way or the other, and this question is purely out of curiosity, not intended to prove one side right or wrong.

A lot of people are bringing up numbers in relation to the number of female-based pejoratives Sam and Dean use in seasons one and two as opposed to the amount they use in season three.

Here's my question, though: How many opportunities are they given to use them in seasons one and two? For the most part, aren't the Big Bads of the season male, and most of the MOTWs? Even Meg, who I'd consider a Big Bad, had very little contact with either of the boys throughout the season, IIRC (most of the contact she has with Sam is before he finds out she's a demon, I think.)

In season three, we have Bela (who I think even those that love her can agree was written as antagonistic and had ethical issues), Lilith, and Ruby (who even the viewers aren't given the facts about where her loyalties are.) Bela and Ruby are given as much screen time as the regulars in past seasons were, the difference being that in the other two seasons, the regulars were Bobby, Ellen, Jo, Ash, etc., all characters written as friends or at least friendly to their cause.

So given that season three has two new regular female characters deliberately written as "baddies" or at least antagonistic/of dubious loyalties - that the boys see on a regular basis - I don't think it's necessarily strange that Sam and Dean's pejorative count would go up.

Granted, I haven't re-watched the first season in its entirety since it came out, ditto on the second season, so I very well may be remembering wrong. It's just that sometimes data can be skewed like that, and I think basing your opinion of how misogynistic the show is or isn't on skewed data can be a little dangerous.

Feel free to prove me wrong or discuss or whatnot, this was just a little bit of "hmm" that popped into my head earlier.

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I'm a very complacent person who doesn't so much notice patterns of chauvinism or racism in a show unless they've been written in purposely so as to be immediately apparent, or until someone else (eg. all of SPN fandom) points it out during or later.

The fact that I did blink at it a little when Dean called Ruby a slut (admittedly, not so much for any perceived sexism, but because of the particular word, since Ruby hasn't given us evidence that she's slept with anyone), and when Sam called her a bitch (jarring, because I expected that from Dean and hearing it coming from Sam was odd, but which, upon reflection, I sort of like because the oddness made it clearly deliberate. He wasn't just saying this in the midst of manpainy flailing like Dean - he was making a choice, and it was Dean instead of Ruby. PS: The "Bitch"/"Hit me with your best shot, baby" exchange WAS KIND OF HOT, OKAY).

I let both go very quickly (I will slightly shamefacedly say I didn't even notice bigotry in Dean and Bela's interactions) because tbh I was freaking out about Dean and hell and Sam and MAJIKK DEMON POWERRRS, but also because of the recipients of the remarks. Someone else - no idea who now - said it better. If the boys called Jo or Ellen or a random waitress or damsel in distress that? Cause for much concern. Calling Bela, Ruby, Crossroads Demon or Lilith that? Maybe worrisome, but nothing I couldn't buy, and nothing I mightn't call them myself were I in their shoes. Well. Maybe not slut. That was a little weird.

So, yeah. Call me mostly unconcerned with a hint of weirded out.

And if there were a letter-writing campaign, I might sigh a little, but I think I would join in, not out of my own principles, because I'm not really at all outraged? But I hate that it's detracting from other people's enjoyment of the show. And if changing something as little as making Dean call someone a son of a bitch instead of a bitch is going to let more people like this ridiculously amazing show, then I'm all for it.

I'm a very complacent person who doesn't so much notice patterns of chauvinism or racism in a show unless they've been written in purposely so as to be immediately apparent

I totally hear you on that. For me, fictional TV shows are just that, fictional. I might love characters or hate them, but it doesn't rile me up to the point that I want it to change. If I don't like the characters that much, I just don't watch. Not to say that people who do try to change the show for the better are wrong, it's just not what I do.

I'll admit that 'slut' is a little weird in context, and if people were focusing just on that insult, I'd probably be more on board with the outrage. But to me, 'bitch' and even to some extent 'skank' are equivalent to 'bastard', 'son of a bitch', 'asshole', 'dick', etc. I feel like if we're going to call Dean out about being wrong to call girls names, we should be calling him out about calling guys names, too. And we should be calling Ruby out for calling him a dick. There are a lot of things that are said or done by females toward males, that I think if they were male to female, people would get really upset about. And I really think that sucks.

If the boys called Jo or Ellen or a random waitress or damsel in distress that? Cause for much concern. Calling Bela, Ruby, Crossroads Demon or Lilith that? Maybe worrisome, but nothing I couldn't buy

Exactly. That's what I guess I don't understand other people's opinion of the most.

And if changing something as little as making Dean call someone a son of a bitch instead of a bitch is going to let more people like this ridiculously amazing show, then I'm all for it.

I think I could jump on board with a letter-writing campaign if it was geared toward wanting Dean to grow as a character and have his faults examined and dealt with during the course of the show, but if it was just to ask that they remove all elements of Dean saying/doing things that might be considered sexist/chauvinistic/misogynistic, I'm not sure I could.

I have this whole big spiel about art imitating life and the need to change real life so that art can reflect better people, but it's all jumbled in my head and it makes me sound kinda douchey, tbh.

SIGH. I need some John Simm marathoning to cheer me up. Or some kind of pornathon or drabble-a-thon or something. Come on, fandom. I know there's gonna be one of those or a love meme or something popping up soon.

Haha, your mention of John Simm just derailed my entire train of thought. Not that it was entirely coherent anyway. I just wish everyone would stop having such good arguments for both sides - I feel one second like I shouldn't have been weirded out at all, and the next like I should feel guilty for not being outraged.

It would be particularly interesting if they did address Dean's attitudes toward women next season. Maybe they won't really have time, with him being in hell or something like it, but. Although I'm wondering if he'll be confronted with his sins in life. Hm! (Though I feel as though SPN's hell isn't about sinning, so much as the conscious decision to sell or give yourself away to hell willingly. Thus the deals, the promises witches make to demons, or ghosts bringing down other ghosts with them, like Mary did. Still. DEAN'S SINS. I wanna hear them. >:D)

Jumping back to John Simm for a moment, do you have an idea of where I could find Crime and Punishment with him in it? Hahaha, to be honest, I'm more interested in Rose Tyler's dad as Razumikhin. PETE!

I looked for it on YouTube but all I found was the trailer and also this amusing but somewhat disturbing comment:

my favorite part of the book is when Raskolnikov's essay on crime is discussed by Porfiry, its almost as dostoevsky read my thoughts, I share the exact same view on crime and completely agree on raskolnikov's analysis on who can commit crimes

Yikes.

I actually have Crime and Punishment, just haven't gotten around to, you know. (Unlocked post and all.) But I'm in the process, so I'll update as soon as it's done. ♥

my favorite part of the book is when Raskolnikov's essay on crime is discussed by Porfiry, its almost as dostoevsky read my thoughts, I share the exact same view on crime and completely agree on raskolnikov's analysis on who can commit crimes

HAHAHA WHAT. I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry.

*indulges in Simm for a while*